I was at a church gathering last sunday night where we watched some of Focus on the Family's "The Truth Project" (which is really good by the way.) One of the things the person teaching did, was he had a graph which had several different colored spheres. One said "God", another said "Family" another said "Church" another said "Labor" etc. etc. His point was that we need to be careful not to confuse spheres...in other words, just b/c God says "Wives, submit to your husbands" in Ephesians (a command relevant to the sphere of family) or, in 1 Timothy, "I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man", a command relevant to the sphere of Church, does not mean that man cannot work somewhere just because he has a woman supervising him, or whatever. (Which doesn't involve the sphere of family or church, but of labor.)
He then made a passing reference that in his study of Scripture, he hasn't seen any passage that would indicate that it is unbiblical for a woman to be in authority over a man in the area of labor or, incidentally, in politics. Obviously this is relevant to us now, since the thought of Hillary Clinton being president may soon become a reality.
Now, one could argue (which I'm not going to right now) that it would be unbiblical to vote for Hillary b/c of her stance on abortion or some other issue. However, my question is; is it unbiblical to vote for Hillary b/c she is a woman? This isn't a chauvinistic questions, I simply want to know if you all think it's biblical for a woman to be in authority of an entire nation.
50 comments:
Well personally, I don't have a problem with women elders so if I saw a woman candidate that I thought could do a good job I'd vote for her. Unfortunately, I don't know if there's really been a good candidate in a long long time.
Hey in other news I found an interesting article on the the whole Gender Neutral vs. Gender Accurate thing. You can read it here.
http://brokenstainedglass.typepad.com/broken_stained_glass/2007/07/bible-translati.html
Interesting. We were just discussing this at lunch today (see, Jacob? punk.)...Personally, I cannot imagine a woman being in that kind of authority. Whether or not it's biblical...my thinking is that it's not unbiblical for a woman to be president (God save us from Hillary!). However, I don't think it's wise. There is a reason God gave men authority over women.
I know Nancy Leigh DeMoss, for instance, talks about the challenges created by being 'over' men in her ministry. Now this would look completely different for a woman who is not a believer, but in heart matters only. I think God created us to (for the most part) support and assist the men - even in labor....
Jacob, did I mention you're a punk?
I see no problem biblically to not have a woman president. It is not ideal; but if it came down to a liberal male president and a conservative female president I would vote for the woman. On the other hand, if it comes down to something like Guiliani and Clinton, I will not vote.
Personally, I believe we need to come out from amongst the heathen. I believe it is unbiblical to vote, period. The very fact that you would even consider the possibility of putting a woman in a position of authority shows just how far our church has fallen. COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS!!!
Have you not read the verses where Paul forbids a woman to even open her mouth in public. All women should simply shut up and be quiet, learn in all submission and humility at home.
This pagan country has so infiltrated the church that we actually entertain the idea of a woman president. This country is sitting under condemnation from a HOLY GOD!
Repent now of this terrible question. Repent now, of the liberalism seeping into your soul. While you STILL can.
Else you may go the way of the "Knocked Up" pastor.
Please excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't a Queen be the same as a President? Is there anything wrong with Queen Elizabeth's ruling England?...or any Queen that ever ruled......Wasn't there a woman judge named Deborah in the bible? Seems to me the idea of women not having authority over a man is talking more along the lines of spiritual authority.
My first question to you Erin would be, "Do you have a husband to whom you can ask this question?" After all, the HOLY APOSTLE PAUL did tell us that he commanded women to learn in all humbleness at home.
You see, the HOLY APOSTLE PAUL understood that women are "weak willed" (See 2 Tim 3:6) and that they would only be saved through child bearing.(See 1 Timothy 2:15).
Biblical evidence aside, why would we want to base our life on a Pagan Country which has a long history of being tied to Apostate Rome? The church of England is no church at all. I am shocked at the dearth of Bible knowledge in today's youth.
I won't even address Joe's statement. I wonder if he's even saved!
Also Jennifer, God is not pleased when you call another person names. The pagans do this. As Christians we are to be called out.
Yes, actually I do have a husband, whom I consulted with before I posted my comment. We are in agreement on this issue. Thanks for asking.
Um...that is not what Paul wrote; I believe that is out of context. I also think that wondering if someone can be saved by reading their comment on a blog is a dangerous thing to say! However, I can appreciate your comment that God is not pleased when we call people names. The Lord sees the heart and definitely knew what was in mine when I called Jake a punk...we're good friends and it was pure teasing. But you could not have known that. I apologize and will be more careful in the future.
Erin, very interesting point regarding the Queens...and Janelle, very good point - if she were conservative vs. a liberal male candidate I would absolutely vote for her. However, I still don't think that it is a job that God designed for women...and no, I don't have a husband. :o)
Jennifer,
That is exactly what Paul wrote. If you would like I could type each verse out. I did use the NIV and not the authorized version so that you might have a clearer understanding.
As for your teasing, I seem to recall another verse THE HOLY APOSTLE PAUL wrote about foolish jesting. I probably made that verse up too.
Jack, I quote from your comment: "Have you not read the verses where Paul forbids a woman to even open her mouth in public. All women should simply shut up and be quiet, learn in all submission and humility at home."
I Timothy 2:11 says, "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness." Seems very different to me...
Btw, I could not find who you are through either of those links. It took me to two different sites. And, just so you know, I'm not trying to fight dirty and have no desire to offend. :o)
I Corinthians 14:34 says
women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.
I added the bold obviously. As for me, I do not have a blog. I linked to two blogs that you would do well to read. They have greatly helped my spiritual journey.
Sadly, Jack is a guy I know (who may well be stealing internet connection from me at this moment--for some reason God doesn't care if you steal from the heathen).
Don't worry he'll go away eventually.
Right Jack. BTW, the salvation comment hurt coming from a guy who wouldn't know love if it bit his...well you know. :)
Ok, I'm confused...but that happens almost as much as Squishy! ;o)
Jack,
I'm glad you've jumped in on this discussion, although I'm really not sure why you have decided the best way to prove your point or convince people of something is by insulting and demeaning them. I would expect that from a "pagen" (to use your term), but not from a fellow christian.
Jack,
If I may speak for him doesn't feel that he is insulting anyone. He is just sharing the truth with us that he is right.
In other news. Jake, I've been reading Challies posts on homeschooling. I'm going to put something up on my thoughts on schooling choices someday soon, but you know you might want to slap up your thoughts. Keep your post count high, so when some of my phsyco friends like Jack come by there's more stuff to rant about.
Wow, I was gone for one day and missed out on all this.
Joe, do you really know Jack?
Sadly, he lives very near me. :) He and are know each other. I wouldn't say we're friends.
I'd respond to you, Jack, but you don't have a point. Apparently you didn't understand the question, since you're obsessed w/ quoting Scriptures related to the Church (and that's assuming I accept the point about the Church, which, of course, I don't.)
And Erin, although I loved your reply, I don't think Deborah applies. She was a Judge that delivered Isreal when they rebelled, I don't know if she's a relevant example.
Harsh, Jake! I think Deborah would count...she 'led'.
Yeah, Jaime, it was a hoppin' place last night! :o)
Jack, you might be interested to see what our church and family of churches believe. You can see this at www.metrolife.org. If you're ever in O-town we'd love to have you join us for a Sunday service to 'debate' afterwards. :o)
of course I could definitely be wrong about deborah...I'll ask my dad and get back to you :-).
oh baby! Its about time someone like Jack showed up...too bad they never stay :( I actualyy agree with him when he says
"Have you not read the verses where Paul forbids a woman to even open her mouth in public. All women should simply shut up and be quiet, learn in all submission and humility at home."
How amazing would it be if all women couldn't speak in public? If you ladies wanted to talk to each other you would have to whisper to your husband what you wanted to say, and then he would tell the other husband, then the other women would whisper to her husband how to respond...and on and on...can you imagine walking into church and all the women are following their husbands around whispering things to say? I want to go to Jack's church :)
Wow, I completely missed out on this amazing discussion. If I took Jack seriously I would respond...except that he keeps referring to the HOLY APOSTLE PAUL as if anyone was Holy besides God. I wonder what Paul would think...seeing that he referred to himself as the worst sinner he knows. Hmm.
Janelle,
It is you I do not take serious. THE HOLY APOSTLE Paul was made Holy by God's grace. He was set apart by God who chose him. To disagree with this shows the dirth of your Biblical knowledge. Please refrain to speaking in such a manner to one of God's teachers. After all, it is your consequences that you are creating.
I know you are angry with me right now, but I speak only the truth in love for your benefit.
OH Jack. Go sell some cars! Let these people alone.
How did this conversation get here, anyways? I still want to know what people think about the post. Jake, what do you think since you wrote it anyways?
Oh boy.....kinda makes you not want to be a woman anymore.....but I'll refrain from commenting on the comments and instead comment on the post. I personally don't believe that a woman should be a president. It is a man's role to lead and a woman's role to submit.....however, I would have to say (and I think that someone already said this earlier) that if the woman (this would NOT be Hillary Clinton)had more conservative views than the male, I would probably vote for her, but I think our country has seriously moved away from its godly foundation and that would just kind of confirm how far our country has gone.....did that make ANY sense? I have a tendency to babble.....I would not survive in Jack and Joey's church of whispering women.
Ali, your comment has made the most sense out of anyones so far.
Janelle,
I'm not agreeing with Jack here, but I disagree. What in my first comment didn't make sense? In fact, I have a question for Ali. Your position seems to be a reigious one, not a political one. There doesn't seem to be "spheres" as Jake called them in your view.
I won't even touch the "Christian Foundation" statement. I'm about to watch a really great T.V. show about our Christian Slave heritage. :) Just bringing some smiles, I hope!
Thank you, Minkey. : ) As for Joe's question, I actually forgot all about the spheres thing...I was too caught up in all of the comments.....but I do think that since our government was founded on Biblical values and one of those Biblical values is that men lead and women submit, then I would say that my stance is also a political one. : )
Joey you're not my friend anymore.
(How come no one else thinks that was a totally male-chauvinistic-pig thing to say? Help me out here, ladies!)
Btw, does no one find it strange that Jacob spelled 'Aquitted' wrong....what an atrocity!!! You must have gone to private school! ;o)
Ha!! I never noticed he spelled it wrong.
You're welcome, Ali. Joey, you are a male-chauvenistic-pig. You're not my friend...uh...brother...anymore.
Joe, your comment didn't make sense because you don't have a problem with women elders. Unless you were joking, then that makes sense. :-)
No, that's why it does make sense. I would vote for a woman b/c I believe that women can be elders. That's why Paul told us about women like Lydia and Phoebe. :) Wait 'till Jack gets back from his trip. He loves it when people call him a chauvinist. :)
Ok, fine, your comment made sense. What DOESN'T make sense is women elders. It's kind of like an oxymoron...almost. :-)
Joseph! You've been called out by a girl! Bullocks on Phoebe and whoever else you quoted about. Paul would have never let a woman even speak to him let alone lead a church. How can the weaker vessel (See Peter) ever lead a church? Since, everyone around here seems to be a bit prudient allow me to answer the question. I would never vote for a woman to lead this country.
The very fact that we would discuss it shows how far the church has fallen.
Despite what Joseph will tell you this country was founded on Christian principles by Godly Christian men. We need to return to those roots.
Women need to learn to be submissive and quiet. Work hard with their hands.
REPENT NOW! Men need to be men! Young people, repent for the end is near!
Lol. Jack, Joey is joking. He really is my brother.
Who said anything about women leading a church? We weren't talking about a church. And as for the whole "women shut up and submit" thing, there is also a verse in Ephesians 5:33 that says, "Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband" Somehow, "Shut up and submit" does not seem like love to me. : ) And there is a difference between men leading and men domineering. Men are not called to domineer over women, but to lead sacrificially. "Doing things right in Matters of the Heart" gives great examples of the roles that men and women are supposed to have.
But yes, I do agree that men need to be men and not the hesitant guys that the feminists have made some of them into. And women should submit, but it should be their delight to do so because it pleases God and it is what He has called them to do.
the thing we need to find out is why Paul was telling the Corinthians that the women were not permitted to speak in church. Acts talks about sisters that were prophesying (in a commending way, not a corrective way), obviously Scripture does not teach the women are never permitted to speak in Church. Paul was obviously commanding the Corinthians that in some way "he does not permit women to speak"...probably (according to many older men that I trust) b/c they were interrupting church services w/ questions, to which Paul was saying (paraphrasing) "Hello. Let them learn to be submissive, don't let them speak and interrupt church, let them ask their husbands at home..." Scripture clearly doesn't teach that women are never allowed to speak in public. I don't even know why we're having this discussion, it's kind of like debating whether we should actually cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes when they offend us.
Yay, Jake, yay!
Oh Young Jacob, there was a time when those who were older and wiser told us that the black man was a punishment from Ham seeing his father naked. I must say Joseph's position is far more consistent than your's appears to be. (He's still wrong)
To your detriment.
This has been the most entertaining post I have ever come across :)....thanks Jack!
I think Jake summed up this...err...debate or whatever it is now pretty well. Thank you, Jake! : )
Jack, JOEY WAS JOKING.
Jacob, that was most excellent.
Janelle,
I think by Joseph, Jack means me, not Joey. :)
Women are called to submit to their HUSBANDS.
I am not called to submit to every man who i come in contact with.
*just wanted to make that clear*
also, Joey’s grand idea of having every woman whisper into their husbands ear would be difficult for those who have no husbands…unless you suggest we simply don’t talk at all, which I’m sure you’d enjoy very much ;)
jake, jack, joe, joey....whoa WAY too many 'J' names....all looking alike…
Would you consider it a sin to have a woman "over" a man in any business as CEO, President, or just the boss of other men?
Would you “vote” in the president of your company based on gender or based on ability to fulfill the job?
How does this differ from the job of president of the USA?
absolutely. in the "labor" sphere there is no reason that gender should be an issue in determining who gets what job...that goes for the political sphere as well. there is nothing "wrong" with a women president. (I do think there is something to be said about the fact that the type of leadership a president needs to have is a very masculine type of leadership...so if the best choice for president is really a woman...ehh, that wouldn't be ideal.)
Thank you* :)
-Me
ps have a great trip to Wales
must be hard staying in a castle
we'll be praying for you guys
This sort of banter is what turns folks off to "Christians".
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