There's two more things I want to address. The first is the issue of, as Jesse put it, the "worship-artists", people like Chris Tomlin, Paul Baloche etc. That has led to everyone and their sister putting out "worship" albums, some, like Michael W. Smith, Newsboys, Phillips Craig and Dean etc. w/ great success. "The distinctions between contemporary Christian artists like Chapman, and worship leaders like Redman are becoming more and more blurred" as Jesse put it. Whether this is a good things is probably not for me to decide. I personally love to listen to Tomlin's stuff I think some of his songs (How Great Is Our God, Indescribable and Enough to name 3) is some of the best worship songs around these days.
My problem, again, is that there's seems to be no end to people "stealing" (a word I'm using simply because it's the easiest word to use) other people's worship songs. I'm not talking about taking a song, as SonicFlood did, like "I Could Sing of Your Love Forever" which was written by someone who does not have a record deal and was never released as a single on the radio, then when, to my knowledge, 4 people have released "Everlasting God" as a single in the last couple months (Tomlin, Brenton Brown and Phillips Craig and Dean and Lincoln Brewster.)
The second issue is one Janelle raised. "For secular music, they can say whatever they want whenever they want however they want. But for the Christian musicians, most themes are off limits, and therefore they may be stifled creativity wise." This brings me to a fundamental disagreement me and Joey have. My favorite bands are those who have "Christian themes" but don't have explicitly Christian lyrics (Relient K, Switchfoot, The Fray etc.) He thinks they're spineless sell-outs and the only reason he listens to them is because they're so much better musically then most other Christian bands. I think Janelle's right when she said "the answer is simple, in my opinion. The hesitancy is to write a song that "says the same thing as all the other songs." You turn on Generic Christian Radio Station, and really, what's the difference between You Know My Name by Brandon Heath, You Alone are God by Echoing Angels, I Will Lift my Eyes by Bebo Norman, Give it Away "all of my dreams all of my whatever I give them to you" by Aaron Shust Shine by Salvador or anything by Jeremy Camp?
I think there's four basic camps in Christian music today.
1) Explicitly Christian lyrics that are creative and original (Jack Needam, tobymac, Kutless, Steven Curtis Chapman Casting Crowns etc.)
2) Explicitly Christian lyrics that "same the same thing as all the other songs." (Echoing Angels, Jeremy Camp, Mark Shultz, Brandon Heath, Chris Rice etc.)
3) Christian themed lyrics that are not neccesarily explicitly Christian (Relient K, Hawk Nelson, Switchfoot, thebeautifulrepublic etc.)
4) People who steal songs (Phillips Craig and Dean, Selah, Geoff Moore random bands whenever they feel like it)
Now, of those four, how would you list which order you would want to listen to? I list it
1
3
2
4
Obviously, assuming the skill of the musicians and the catchiness of the melodies are similar, the ideal song would have explicitly Christian lyrics that preach the Gospel to a world in dire need of it. But I would WAAAAAY rather listen to Christian themed lyrics and even "same old same old" lyrics then....THE EXACT SAME SONG!!!!!! Every problem with unoriginal lyrics (no creativity, I've heard it all before etc.) is magnified BECAUSE I HAVE HEARD THE SONG BEFORE!!! If I want to listen to Bless the Broken Road, I'll listen to Rascal Flatts. They do it way better anyway. Find or write some original words, slap a melody on it, and record that. Don't steal someone else's song.
Thank you, thank you, you're far too kind.
20 comments:
I agree. I would put them in that same order...though I love Lincoln Brewster because no matter how many songs he "steals" from other people, he always makes them sound better than the original, ("Everlasting God", "Everyday" etc.) But yeah, good posts.
I really have no idea, I just wanted to show Jesse that I have a name now. I am not lazy.
So why don't these creative types with good music (Reliant K, the fray etc) jump into category 1? Cuz they know it won't sell. Therefore, they are the definition of a sell-out. Not that they don't write anything good. They do, but would it kill them to write explicitly God glorifying music evry now and then?
1) are you sure some of Relient K and the Fray etc. stuff isn't God glorifying?
2) I'm not saying Group 3 shouldn't be in Group 1 (that's why I had group 1 as the best option) I'm saying it's preferrable to the other groups.
1) "explicitly" God glorifying? I can think of one.
2) the fact that 3's could be the best 1's is what makes 3's so disappointing to me.
Also, you failed to address the fact that in hip hop music, people borrow each others stuff all the time. Even stuff that's still popular. The whole remix thing. How is that not just as lazy and unoriginal as the pop Christians you so quickly scathe?
Jaime is not lazy, I realize now.
1) you don't think that the fact that Relient K wrote a song like "Who I Am Hates who I've Been" (and then it was heard by many many unsaved people) doesn't glorify God? Or "Meant to Live" by Switchfoot? Or the fact that people buy Relient K's cd for a song like "Pencils" which was very popular in secular music and then hear a song like "Never underestimate My Jesus"? Just a few examples
2) For one, hip hop is an entire different animal. Giving "shout-outs" which includes taking a line from your boy's song, is seen as a good thing. That's why so many of their songs feature each other too. Young Jeezy had fifteen tracks on his newest Cd, and 8 of them feature someone on them. I think it's an entirely different animal.
1) is meant to live "explicitly" God glorifying in the same way as How Great is our God? or is it just that God can use it, like he can use absolutely anything in the world, to glorify himself? Not that those types of songs aren't good. But when 95% of your songs are like that, and can be listened to and enjoyed and thought to be meaningful apart from God, that's disappointing.
2) How is it a different animal? How do you know Selah isn't giving a "shout out" to Rascal Flatts that Rascal Flatts enoys?
The hip-hop movement in general uses each other's beats and sayings ("don't get it twisted" "your boy" "snap your fingers" "lean wid it" etc.) sporatically all the time...and sometimes they do their re-mixes where they take the chorus and add their own verses (although usually the re-mixes include the original rapper doing a new verse to the song as well.) This is very similar to bands taking chord progressions or even melody ideas from other songs and making a new song...it's just not as noticeable as when the rappers take similar beats or lines.
That's why it's a different animal.
interesting.... meant to live is not "explicitly" God glorifying in the same way as How Great is our God…but it is still God glorifying if it was written for the glory of God! And can’t we still enjoy it and rock to it with a heart to worship God?
Why do all good Christian musicians have to put out only “worship songs”…I may have misunderstood you but I think these groups (such as the fray, RK, ect.) are just as great and I’m not disappointed in the fact that they have chosen to sing about a little bit of everything instead of strictly worship songs. I could be wrong, but i see both the musician who writes music for us to worship to (for the glory of God) and the musicians who write wacky, creative, wholesome, well done music (for the glory of God) as just as important and wonderful. Each are using their gifts to glorify God, it just looks different for each of them.
Ps I think it’s wrong for you to call them sell-outs cause you don’t know their hearts :)
AND I think west coast revival totally has mixed those two things for me…great music *in my humble opinion* with amazing lyrics! They’d be in the #1 group for me
-Melinda *i found your page through janelle....*
well, well...looks like I'm going to have to write a response sometime...maybe even an article on my blog.
ok never mind I'll respond here.
Let me begin by readdressing jake's original point about stealing other people's songs.
Bands are not allowed to steal songs from other bands. There is no way Selah stole Bless the Broken Road from RF. Just like that country guy who released Lips of an Angel like two weeks after the rock group...whatever their name is...released it. They both got the song from the same place, the rock version just got out first. I don't think Selah said, "hey lets scoop that song from RF" they just liked the song and got permission from whoever wrote it to use it. You think its lame...would RF be lame if they had done it after Selah, or would you be saying "its a good thing RF rescued that song"?
As to Melinda's comment...hmmm...first of all I would like to say that not every song has to be a worship song. In fact...that would be not a good idea. Creativity, humor, addressing things of every day life...I love those types of songs. In fact, I love country music so clearly I am not in favor of only super amazingly doctrinally accurate declaring the majesty of God songs all the time 24/7.
But lets compare what I would call a "Christian" band, dc talk (I realize this is going to legitimize jake and his friends calling me Grandpa), with a band made up of guys who call themselves christians, switchfoot. I pick these two bands because they represent, to me, exactly why I am disappointed in Jake's category 3.
DC Talk, creative, funny, during their heyday were pioneering the beginning of rock/rap, had songs with a vast array of topics and themes. Did maybe one or two "worship" songs if you could even call them that. In the mid 90's they were huge in the Christian music industry. Huge.
Switchfoot. Admittedly I know less about their music than Dc talk, however, no denying they are very good, creative, and have some meaningful songs.
Question: Why did DC talk never achieve the popularity Switchfoot has in the secular world? Not talented, creative, or good enough? Or is it that they were outspoken in their lyrics about their faith? All dc talk had to do was tone it down a bit with the whole Jesus freak thing and they would have made it. All they needed to do was hide their Christianity and passion for God a little more cleverly in their lyrics...and American Top Forty was waiting for them. "Wait , wait!" you say (if you know your dc talk) "they put out songs that weren't so obviously Christian. Like..um...'my friend, so long' oh wait that was about selling out to go mainstream...well, like track 1 of supernatural" Yes there are a couple of dc talk songs that could be listened to where you might not get that it was a Christian band. Those songs are surrounded by 'Into Jesus', 'Jesus Freak', 'In the Light', and just about every other song they ever did. Dc talk was unapologetically loud about their faith, while making creative, fun rock at the same time. They (tobymac at least) saw anything less as selling out. I agree with them.
What is the reasoning, as a Christian, to be in a band and not take that approach? How does one defend writing a majority of songs that can easily be listened to knowing the band is Christian? Am I unfairly characterizing Switchfoot? Meant to live is there most popular song...it easily could have been very powerful. But if I heard it without knowing that switchfoot called themselves christians I could easily imagine it being written by a college student in the throes of existential anxiety, with absolutely no direction as to how to discover what we were meant to live for. If Switchfoot surrounded that song with songs that clearly demonstrated the answer to that problem, then it isn't really an issue for me. But they don't. They keep things just vague and "meaningful" enough that people can take from it what they want.
Is it unfair to want every band to take dc talk's approach? Maybe, but the reasons for a band made up entirely of Christians to keep their lyrics vague enough to be popular don't strike me as good ones. They strike me as compromising an opportunity to boldly represent Christ simply for the sake of money or fame. And yes, I think that's sufficient reason to call them sell outs. do I know their hearts? No. But I look at the platform they have to preach and think...why not use it? I can't think of a good reason.
Me and Joey talked about it last night so I'm not gonna give my entire position, but I have two basic problems with his position
1) the "platform to preach" that bands like Switchfoot Relient K etc. have is there b/c they "sold out" as Joey would say. They wouldn't have the "platform to preach" that they have if had stayed within Christian mainstream.
2) he says Switchfoot (to use his choice) had a great oppurtunity with Meant to Live or Dare You to Move or This Is Your Life to actually present a solution to actually preach the Gospel and all of these people listening to generic hits station could've heard it....they wouldn't have heard it if they had done that with the song!!! The reason all these non-Christians are listening to wholesome, Christian-themed songs (and not trash from some secular band) is exactly because they DON'T present a solution...XL wouldn't have played "Meant to Live" if it had preached the Gospel...and so again, there's a double standard.
That's like a quadruple standard.
so you would have them get a platform...look around and say "sweet we're famous. Good for us."?
Use the platform! remember the difference between Kutless' concert and Reliant K's? That's what gets to me...who would you want your unbelieving friend to go see? Kutless every time. They right sweet rock and preach the gospel. Will they be as popular or famous as Reliant K? No. But the unbelievers at their concert were presented with the gospel. Reliant K's weren't.
"they right" should read "the write"...i think
joey i think you mean "they write"
you're welcome :)
-Melinda
haha :)
ok so i greatly enjoyed reading Joey's explanation of himself and it did clear up a bit of misunderstanding....So you believe it's a disgrace that they aren't MORE open about their Christianity through the lyrics of their songs while keeping the crazy side as well. i agree with that....i hated switchfoot and called them sellouts when they first became big in the main stream as well! but i had to play the devils advocate because although their lyrics aren't preaching the gospel they are wholesome and i wanted to better understand like, what's wrong with that?
so "if God's given you a gift, it's his gift to give and you should use it to Live the Commission as best you can. Gift=music...music=platform...platform=gospel presentation. If this doesn't happen, not glorifying God, thus sell out" - joey (can i put those words in your mouth and be accurate to quote you on that)??
cause that would totally make sense to me.
now with Jake i kind of disagree cause he seemed to say on his last post "he says Switchfoot had a great opportunity with Meant to Live...to actually present a solution to actually preach the Gospel...they wouldn't have heard it if they had done that with the song!!!" I'd just say be careful! cause you can sell your bullets to buy the gun...i hope you know what that means *i love that picture/phrase* we can't water down the gospel soo much that it doesn't even have affect any more just to get a bigger audience. I know that's not what you're saying exactly, but it could be taken that way or be heading in that direction....
-Melinda
Melinda (after correcting my correction) said
"Gift=music...music=platform...platform=gospel presentation. If this doesn't happen, not glorifying God, thus sell out" - joey (can i put those words in your mouth and be accurate to quote you on that)??"
Yes...kind of. I also don't think you should say "hey lets get the biggest platform possible by not really having Christian lyrics" dc talk, kutless etc make a point of no having as big a platform as they could because they want to preach the gospel...that's what I like to see...not Reliant k having a huge platform and being vaguely wholesome
i completely agree
Thanks for clarifying
-melinda
So then the question would have to be "Is there really any reason to be a Christian band and not have obvious Christian lyrics?" Because that would be an oxymoron. If you're a Christian band, you have Christian lyrics. So don't call yourself a Christian band and NOT have Christian lyrics. Switchfoot, for the most part, does not have Christian lyrics, so why can we call them a Christian band?
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