I was going to put together a fairly long response to Joe Martino's poignant question regarding whether or not God ordained the Va Tech killings, so Jake suggested I simply write it as a post. I am Jake's brother Joey, hopefully I won't chase away Jake's massive readership.
So, did God ordain the murder of 32 people, or was it a matter of him simply allowing a sinner the choice to do so, or not, and he chose to kill? I think that scripture is very clear about two things: 1) Nothing occurs that was not ordained by God, and 2) God holds us accountable for our choices.
As for point one, numerous Scriptures indicate that God has ordained every aspect of our lives. Ps 139:16 refers to the days of our lives being written in the book of God before they happen, Job 14:5 says man's "days are determined, and the number of his months is with you, and you have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass." Acts 17:28 indicates that we live and move only through God. Prov 16:9 says "A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Prov 20:24 says a man's steps are ordered by the Lord. Does this include evil? Certainly Scripture is very clear that God has caused evil things to happen. The most evil event in history, the crucifixion of Christ, was ordained by God (Acts 4:27, Acts 2:23). God repeatedly hardened the heart of Pharoah, and Paul says God "has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills" (Romans 9:18). Prov 16:4 says that God made everything for a purpose "even the wicked for the day of trouble." I could go on. The point is that the bible does not try to explain evil in a way that it is somehow outside of his control. Joseph told his brothers that they intended their actions for evil, but God used them for good. Another case of God ordaining evil. His plan for Israel was set into motion by evil events. Etc, etc.
Obviously this is a hard concept to deal with. At first blush, it makes God seem to be evil himself. After all, he ordains it, right? This is why we have to maintain, at the same time believing scripture that God ordains evil, that God never does evil, and God is never to be blamed for evil. The blame for the crucifixion of Christ was placed squarely on the shoulders of those who crucified him, not God (Luke 22:22, Matt 26:24, Mark 14:21, Acts 2:23 etc). Time and again scripture makes it clear that the responsibility for evil belongs to those directly doing the evil things, not on God bringing them about through secondary causes. Again, God ultimately is working all things for the good of those who are called.
So, does this mean that God ordained for 32 people to be killed by the gun of a heartless murderer? Yes. Somehow he is using this event, which was meant for evil by the man accountable for the killings, for his excellent purposes. Is this an easy position to take? Hardly. But I believe it is the biblical position.
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24 comments:
Don't think me a heretic yet, I'm still asking questions, perhaps that is unfair...but hey I'm by far the oldest guy in this conversation so be nice to the old guy!
When the Bible says, "Whoseover will.." what does that mean?
When we are told to choose in the Bible what does that mean?
When God gives "if promises to his people" how do those factor into this?
Ok, just to keep everything intellectually honest. Isn’t abortion ordained by God? Certainly there were murders happening in Jesus day and he doesn’t address them. (I can’t just post this and leave it as my thought) I’ve actually had people say this to me before so…there it is.
I posted this here and in the PB abortion post
Wow Joe, you make me THINK. I'm curious about how Joey will answer.
we would never say you are a heretic. And I certainly believe this is a difficult subject to deal with. The problem of evil is the main argument I heard in college used by professors and students to argue against the existence of God. (and thank you for not beating us over the head about how young we are, as some bloggers may be prone to do:)
In answer to some of your questions, when the bible says "whosoever will" it means exactly what it says. Salvation has been offered to everyone (yes I can say that and still maintain the L of tulip) and whosoever will believe and repent will be saved. God knows and has ordained "whosoever will"...those he predestined he also called, those he called he also justified...we are presented with a choice, and left to ourselves we would all choose sin. "Whosoever" would = 0 if God did not predestine and call us. That doesn't mean it wasn't a choice.
When we are told to choose in the bible, or instructed in any way where we can obey or disobey...it means exactly what it says. Joseph's brothers chose to do all the evil to Joseph that they did. They meant those choices for evil, therefore they are accountable for them...God used them for good. In the same way, when God says "if you do x, you will receive y" he means exactly what he says. For instance "if you honor your parents it will go well with you"etc...He already knew if I was going to honor my parents or not. However, in order for me to know what sin was, what obedience was, he gave the law. When I choose to dishonor my parents, I do so fully aware of his command to not do that. So I can be held accountable for my choice, even if he knew what I was going to choose. His ordaining of me choosing to sin doesn't in any way change the fact that I knew it was wrong and chose to sin. Likewise, when I choose to honor my parents, he blesses that because I did so in the knowledge that it honored Him, even if he knew what I was going to do. God's promises are not made for God's benefit, so that he can see how people are going to respond, they are for our benefit.
as to the abortion issue...a woman's choice to abort her child goes against God's command. It is the result of sin. But, like with Joseph, the cross, Paul's persecution etc...God ordained the evil deeds of others for his good purposes.
I would never hammer over anyone's head their age. I think it might be the teacher in me, but some sites--that like to talk about setting the world on fire--are really just jerks and that is proven in how they treat those younger than them. As for the rest of your comment Joey I would like to see if their is more conversation before I post what I think. Not that I'm the end all or anything like that.
Peace
wow. What a convo. I'm pretty happy I haven't had to say anything. Just to add to what Joey said, just b/c God has ordained abortions, or even that abortion right now is legal, doesn't make it right, and doesn't mean we shouldn't desire to see it made illegal once again. If the VA tech shooter had been killed, we wouldn't not punish him to the full extent of the law simply b/c God "ordained", in His sovereignty, for that event to take place.
"had been killed" should have been "hadn't been killed" in my last post.
I came across this really good quote in "Willing to Believe: the Controversy over Free Will" by RC Sproul. He says:
"Calvin next draws a parallel between the state of the mind and the state of the will. The natural faculty of reason remains intact after the fall, but the soundness of our thinking has been darkened by sin. Man is presently in exile from the kingdom of God, and only the grace of regeneration can restore him. Though man's power of rational thinking has not been utterly destroyed and he has not become a mere brute, the light of his reason is so smothered by darkness that it cannot shine forth to any good effect."
I think one of the things that I struggle with in this discussion is that Calvin was really messed up in some areas. He believed it was a sin if you didn't name your children a Bible name. That's just for fun.
Janelle you are in trouble...or I guess mom and dad are :)
Nobody is saying that this is true because of calvin. Certainly we agree with him about some things...but its the scripture that we need to study to see what it says about these things...Luther had problems, everyone had problems...
Joey I agree with you. I just hate the term "Calvnist." Personal thing, not a theological thing.
Joe
I never said I was right because Calvin said so. I liked the quote though. If I wanted to be right because "someone said so" I would have quoted SCRIPTURE, not Calvin.
Okay Jake...Today i sat down and actually looked at your blog for the first time...and i was excited until your brother joey wrote that super long post which made me have a headache. So he has scared me away. Email me and let me know when you post something that I can understand and read in a minute. => Thanks alot joey for ruining it for me!
A note from the un-theologian:
I use to hate God. I was angry because God let evil happen in the world. I thought it unfair that so few were allowed to be so rich, and so many were made to be so poor. I was missing one thing though. I played a part in all of this. I did know that I wasn't "perfect' but I saw my imperfections as insignificant, and knew that there were many with more significant "imperfections"; CEO's politicians, criminals, etc. I just knew that if I were allowed to run the world I would do a better job. Finally there would be global justice. I could be the benevolent world dictator, or so I thought. This attitude begged a question however; just who in the ^%$# did I think I was? The answer to that question was: "the center of the universe". I won't bore you with the details, but I soon learned that not only was I not the center of the universe, but I was an extremely "significant" contributor to the problems of the world. I learned that I was a sinner of the worst kind. What kind is the worst kind? Unrepentant.
Here's the deal. We are not in any way, fashion, form-or in the depths of any indignation that we might be able to muster in our small depraved little minds-in a position to judge the creator of the universe. We have only to praise him that we were not one of the 31 murdered at VT, or one of the hundreds in the rest of the world for a start. Further more we should praise him all the more that we were not one pulling a trigger. But more than all this we should praise him with all our mind, our hearts, in fact all our being that we have a savior.
I hear this question over and over; how can a good God let bad things happen to good people? This is a silly question because it assumes that there are "good people". But I have a more appropriate question: "How can a good God allow so many wonderful things to happen to bad people? I know that I'm bad you see, And He is still good to me even if I'm murdered by a lunatic, starved at the hands of judges, or rot from some slow advancing horrible disease, because if you miss this one point, no religion, or God will ever make any sense; we are all appropriately and fairly condemned by a holy, righteous, and just God, and if that were all there were to the story, it would not blemish God’s goodness in the least. But. He sent his only son and paid the penalty so that we would not get what we deserve. My question is not "why does God only choose some", but rather "why did he choose me?” Make that your question.
PS Sorry for such a long comment, I had some time on my hands. I don’t know your ages, but I am blessed and encouraged more than you can know as a youngster that you are so knowledgeable. Keep up the good work, may the Lord bless you. (1Tim4:12)
So I came here with a rather long post where I was going to state what I believed. But Danny Wright, i kind of missed where anyone said, "Whey did God let this tragedy happen." **Wring Hands on Cue*** In fact I'll stop typing now and go back and read it again. ***Time elapses while I read and sip my Sprite with oranges***
Nope, no one said that. What I said, was did God ordain it to happen. In other words did he chose for it to happen or did he allow for it to happen? That was the question. One of my biggest problems with "Calvinist" is that they don't seem to listen to the questions. I'm not saying you guys here at all, but DW just illustrates that point so well. My next problem is that they come across like they've got God and the Bible all figured out. I dare you Danny to do your little diatribe to a girl who was just raped. Or maybe to the boy who was systematically abused his whole life.
And don't come back here and tell me that I'm disagreeing with you. I'm not. Personally, when I am asked about why God allows bad things to happen, I often ask, "If God has to answer for the bad things, do we have to answer for the good things?" You see, that's what really irks me, I agree with you, I just found the way you presented to be totally wrong.
Peace.
Joe
You are correct. It was late, (not a good excuse) and I had been reading several post that had been attacking Christians on the matter of VT, something I now realize you were not doing. It was a diatribe; one you didn't deserve. As far as Calvinist not listening to the question, I don't know, but I can say that I personally failed in this. I was wrong and I apologize.
PS Joe
I've never heard of sprite and oranges together, is that good?
Dude, IT ROCKS! And I am a pleasantly plump kind of guy. It works best if slice the orange and then cut a few of the wedges so the juice "bleeds." Over ice too.
And apology most def. accepted. I've gotta run to the store for the wife, but I'll be back later.
Peace
DW,
Fresca is also an excellent beverage with oranges as well.(0 calories and no sugar)
Joe
Some good posts going on here. I think Danny touched on some good points. I hear that argument used a lot with election as well.
"That" being the idea that God doesn't let certain people into Heaven and send the rest to Hell, which would be totally unfair. We were all, I've heard it said, running to hell when God, in his infinite mercy and kindness, scooped us undeserving sinners out of our hellish destination.
Joe, I hope you don't count me as someone who "thinks they've got it all figured out." I would never want anyone to have that perception of me.
And I agree it would be hard to use any kind of reasoning with the family members of the victims at Va Tech. I guess that's why they call it the "problem" of evil.
Ok, so at long last. I too believe that God is sovereign. I also believe that somehow he gives man freedom to make choices. There are too many verses throughout the entire Bible that say, "If you do ABC then I'll do this but if you do XYZ then I'll do this." In other words I believe that the bible teaches both. Often when I'm asked do I believe in election or free will I say, "yes." ***Side note here I can almost see Joey salivating at this answer*** The only time I really pick a side is if I find someone who is arrogantly picking a side. I don't think anyone here has done that I'm just letting you into one of the ways I find amusement in life. You see, there are good Godly men and women on both sides of this issue. Without working hard I can argue convincingly for both sides depending on my mood. This is an issue that has been around for a long long time, and will continue to be so. More often than not it is used as a divisive tool of the enemy.
I'm not saying we shouldn't study it, we should. I just think we should be willing to admit we could be wrong, and I definitely do not think there is enough evidence in Scripture to make this a "separation" issue, which many Christians do. I don't think it's a hill worth dying on.
As for the silly people who say well, if that is true why share our faith, Lawrance did a good job answering that.
The thing that I have learned as I get older (and I'm not trying to play the age card at all) is the older I get the less dogmatic I get about stuff.
Well, these are the dodderings of a n aging man. I enjoy you guys, it makes me think of the days when I was a teacher.
Hey, I wrote an article about God creating sex and some of the feedback I got was that it was inappropriate for single people. Would any single people here mind reading it and giving me some feedback? I don't think it's over the top at all but some did/do...
1.As a single person interact with the article
2. Did it bum you out?
3. Did it make you want to lust, etc.
4. What type of reaction did you have?
Thanks. Here's the link
http://www.joemartino.name/metamorphic/2007/04/god_and_sex.html
Inappropriate for singles??? Lol. It's when we have an appropriate view of sex that lust becomes less of an issue. I'm single; completely agree with your article.
Did it bum me out? No.
"Is this an easy position to take? Hardly. But I believe it is the biblical position."
We are to weep with those who weep. And we are to speak the truth in love.
And we always must honor God before anything else.
Also a quick thought that hit me was that each trajic situation may call for different timing for speaking of it, or about it.
Jobs friends were "spot on" when they first showed up, when they sat quiet. But then they started talking, and ...
There's a time to be quiet, and a time to speak.
I also believe God grieves within Himself, though He ordains all things.
Not a sparrow can fall to the ground apart from the Father's will.
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