Yo, this is a good link. http://www.joemartino.name/ if that doesn't work just go to the comments on my post about clicks and go click on the name of the last comment left. Then read his post (it should be the second one listed) called "Saved to do Good Works." The question I'll be asking has to do with that post.
The key part of his post (which was about election and service) were the popular "election" scriptures in Ephesians. "8 for it is by grace that you are saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves but a gift from God - 9 not by works so that no one can boast. (and then his (mr martino's) key verse, if you will) 10 for are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works."
His point was, so far as I can tell, that the church, or at least Reformed church's who believe in the doctrine of Election, are very strong on verses 8 and 9 and are constantly preaching about those two verses and count them as very important. But those same churches tend to forget about verse 10 and everything that goes along with it (caring for the poor, loving your neighbor, anything to help out socially.) His question was why are we, as the Bride of Christ, so "afriad" if that's even the right word, to help out AIDS victims, to give to the poor, to serve non-Christians etc.
Although I agree with him that many church's don't do enough in the area of serving the poor and the needy, my disagreement with him (and feel free to defend yourself if you find this blog again Mr. Martino) is that it has something to do with Election. Election can and often does serve as an excuse for people to not preach the Gospel (if God elected them, they'll be saved, I don't need to preach.) That will be part 2, by the way. I don't know how someone can ignore God's commands to "love one another" to "Serve the poor" to "do good works" or anything else and use the doctrine of election as an excuse. If someone lacks love for someone for the simple reason that they're not saved, then they are sinning but does it really have anything to do with election?
Anyways, that's not even really my question. My questions is the following: (this of course is assuming that you accept the premise that the church is not active enough in social issues the involve serving other Christians and non-Christians alike)
Is the government so out of control with their welfare programs, their distribution of wealth, their "helping the needy" programs that are clear in Scripture to be the job of the church b/c the church has, as a whole, failed at it? Or is the Church not as socially active as it should be b/c the government has, in effect, taken it's job (in this one area) away from it? Whose fault is it?
Joey should have a sweet opinion about it cause we touched on this subject in class last night, but obviously I want everyone's opinion. (even Melinda's :-)
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Hey, Good post. I would like to correct one small part and agree with something. I didn't say it was just reformed churches; I was just using election in the beginning to give some background into me. I honestly have never heard a sermon on verse 10 even though I’ve heard potentially hundreds on 8 and 9. I definitely wouldn’t say it is just reformed Churches that fail at this, in fact I scored through the words conservative people and put the word the church. Emergent, Armenian, Fundamental, it doesn’t seem to make a difference the entire Church universal could do more across the board on this.
Which brings me to my agreement with you; this dichotomy or cognitive dissonance between what we say we believe and do has nothing to do with the Doctrine of Election. It has everything to do, I would imagine with the doctrine of Total Depravity.
Peace
Joe said "Which brings me to my agreement with you; this dichotomy or cognitive dissonance between what we say we believe and do has nothing to do with the Doctrine of Election. It has everything to do, I would imagine with the doctrine of Total Depravity." I also agree.
As to Jake's question about whether the government or church is at fault in this area I would certainly think that the Church has no one to blame but ourselves if we are not obeying Scripture. The fact that our government is trying to do a job it isn't supposed to do doesn't mean the Church can sit back and watch. The reason the government isn't supposed to be feeding the needy and giving money to the poor is because it isn't good at it. It doesn't help as much as it hurts those its trying to help. There are many reasons that is the case but the point is, as long as the Church is not doing its job, the job isn't going to get done.
I completely agree. We definitely don't do enough socially in the church. I think, especially in reformed churches, that such emphasis is placed doctrine that this may be something that has been overlook.
As for the hypercalvinist "we don't have to evangelize" stuff, Mr. Spurgeon, as we all know, had plenty to say about that.
Also, I don't think that the government has "taken away" the job of the church. It is both the government and the churches job to be socially active. The thing is, sometimes the government goes to far, and sometimes the church doesn't do enough, so there is no balance.
On the other hand, Rick Warren and people like that seem to use social issues for publicity. This is clearly not what the point of Scripture is. I think that is why the church was up in arms about it (though very self-righteously, I might add.) OF COURSE the church should be active in society and helping others, but not for its own sake. Church leaders should definitely be on the forefront, but they should be LEADING the church, not out all alone getting publicity for it.
Just my thoughts.
Janelle, I enjoyed reading your blog. Can I ask you a question, "Do you have any proof that Rick Warren is doing the stuff he does for publicity?" That sounds dangerously close to me to judging his motives.
"seem" was the key word:-) It "seems" that the only reason he would sign something like the Global Warming Pact (the only evangelical/Christian to do so), or meeting with the Syrian President, would suggest a desire to be in the spotlight.
But thanks for bringing it up. It definitely wasn't my intention to sound judgemental.
well jake here's my priceless opinion ;)
i agree with most of what has been said thus far, but i think if we stop here we've accomplished nothing (except pointing a few fingers at who's fault this is and what isn't working)
i guess i'd love to hear some comments/questions about what the church (as in melinda pino) can do about this lack. you said,
"assuming that you accept the premise that the church is not active enough in social issues the involve serving other Christians and non-Christians alike"
joey then mentioned "as long as the Church is not doing its job, the job isn't going to get done."
soon after Janelle said "I completely agree. We definitely don't do enough socially in the church."
so we all think the church could do more...but between singles social, worship workshops, youth groups, and our own lives, where can we fit more? where can I fit more? what can we do NOW to redeem our failure in this area? i do believe this is important but what does that mean to us now! I can’t open an orphanage in Miami on my own right now (as much as I’d like to), but I CAN __________________*fill in the blank* do you feel me......?
-Me
Mayve we could do away with singles socials as we know them. Maybe we could even do away with youth group. Maybe we could cancel a service now and again and actually plan a service event outside of our church. Maybe we could become intentional about how we live our lives and make friends with “the least of these.” Maybe I use too many maybe’s.
I would think the most obvious answer is just to be intentional with what we do as a group, whether that be youth group, singles group what have you. I mean we have "Deluge events" once a month...should we be doing more of what we're doing this month (serving single moms) and less going to Busch Gardens? Or even something simple like when we go to Busch Gardens using that as an oppurtunity to look for areas to evangelize and/or serve the people that are there.
I love all this talk and respect all of you for your heart to grow in seeing the gospel invade the lives of others. (I also agree with Joe's concerns about your comment, Janelle, about Rick Warren...hmm...sounded critical to me, too.) I recently heard about some people at Grace Church on the westside doing something so wonderful as a demonstration of vs 10. A single mom without a job started visiting the church. 3 families learned of some practical needs of hers and decided to do a mini "home makeover." They purchased a washer and dryer for her so she wouldn't have to drag laundry back and forth to the laundermat; bought new linens and pretty things for her small apartment; and paid her overdue electric bill (and also paid more in advance to cover a few future months). This is the gospel in action and something we could all do if our eyes are open to the needy around us. How inspiring!
I heard a rumble in the blogosphere and thought that my brother who does not believe in limited atonement must be posting again. So I zipped on over and decided to weigh in only to realize I have nothing in particular to say. Ha, but that won't keep me from posting, now will it? Nope. I do enjoy reading though.
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